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Tuesday, January 09, 2024

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I don’t know if these exist outside the mind, but what about:

virtue (as seen in some action)

war (or peace)

ideas (maybe written out but still not “material."

Yes, I say that there are existing things that are not material. Design a building (or any new thing) and you will encounter such things. I have designed things for many decades. Even before I put a design down or paper, I am aware of at least some aspect of the design in a non-material way. I can't get something on paper if I have nothing in my mind at all. There is something that exists before I draw it. And then you can materially build from the drawings. but it all goes back to some place of immaterial, yet real existence. Personally, I don't think that this place is "in my brain" or "part of my brain," either. I can't prove that, though.

What about facts? E.g. the fact that 7 is a prime number? Same for proofs, inferences etc -- nothing material in them, but denying their existence on account of immateriality is worse than weird.
What about shadows and holes -- these funny entities are a huge and well known problem for (1).

Dmitri,

I am looking for decisive counterexamples to (1), CEs that refute (1) beyond any possibility of dispute by intelligent people.

If facts are abstract objects, they do not satisfy that very stringent (and possibly unsatisfiable) requirement. Ditto if a proof is an array of propositions. An inference is a mental process and it may work.

Shadows are located, they are subject to change of shape, and they move. So they have to be in space and time in some sense, and so they have to be material in some sense.

But these are good examples that stimulate thought. Thanks for the response.

Something about holes, absences, privations, etc. later. Keep your powder dry.

If something is not in space, it is not in time either, because Spacetime is all one thing.

How about structure? The best empirical science we have, particularly in biology where its most evident, is holistic in nature. Parts forming a whole (e.g. organs forming the immune system, muscle and nerve cells forming a blood pumping heart, atoms forming an organism) that exhibit properties
and functions that can't sensibly be attributed to any of its parts, thus making them more than just a mere aggregate.

Is the structure itself material? No doubt it has a spatiotemporal extension, being part of the organism in question. But it adds something more to it. And if the "something more" isn't identifiable with any part of the object in question, then it must be something beyond it. So if the bestowed function or behavior is not identifiable with the matter making the object up, then that what accounts for it must be immaterial (though, importantly, not in the Cartesian sense).

>>Are there counterexamples to (1)? Are there existing things that are not material?<<

What about moral rights and moral obligations? Arguably, they exist. And they are not material things.

Yet, moral rights might not count as a decisive example. Bentham (Anarchical Fallacies) famously denied the existence of natural rights. But he seemed to grant the existence of legal rights, and these are not material things. Nor are legal obligations.

https://oll.libertyfund.org/quote/jeremy-bentham-on-rights-as-a-creation-of-the-state-alone-1831

What about wind? It is made up of air, but is not, strictly speaking, air; rather, a force that moves air.

James Ross has an argument for the immateriality of thought which draws inspiration from Kripke's interpretation of the rule following paradox. On Ross's view nothing physical can determinately realize formal operations because there are always alternative "incompossible" functions that the physical facts are consistent with. Ross thinks that this applies to mathematical functions like addition, but also thinks it applies to logical operations like modus ponens. I'm not sure if that would satisfy the nominalist but it is worth considering.

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