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Sunday, November 24, 2024

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I have long been fascinated by your metaphilosophical skepticism, because I take myself to have philosophic knowledge... I would go so far as to say I know that I have philosophic knowledge. Yet, I also grant that the disagreement of intelligent and competent people should be taken as potential evidence against one's view. So, I have long lurked on your blog, trying to see if I can find a flaw in your arguments for metaphilosophic skepticism.
I'm not sure if I've found one yet, but I have a proposal I'd like to throw out to see how you would refute it. I take the key premises of your argument to be,
1. "My justification for considering a certain argument sound is undermined by your disagreement assuming that we are both competent in the subject matter of the argument and we are epistemic peers."
2. We can safely assume there is disagreement between epistemic peers who are both competent on the subject matter of the argument on every substantial philosophical thesis.
Both premises have a surface believability; they both seem probable. Where then, as someone knowing he has philosophic knowledge, can I disagree? I would put pressure on the second thesis.
I would propose that there are some theses for whom the evidence is so powerful, when attended to correctly, that one who has seen the evidence can safely assume that all who disagree have not attended to the evidence correctly. Two important theses that I take to be evident in this way are, "being is not non-being" and "something exists". Slightly less important but still interesting are statements like "I currently have the sensations of white and blue".
This thesis puts me in the awkward position of appearing arrogant. For you, I assume, take yourself to have attended correctly to the evidence for my theses and have not found them convincing. Who am I to assume we are not epistemic peers? These are weighty questions to which I cannot yet articulate satisfying answers. Perhaps such questions cannot be answered in words and require something like Alyosha's kiss as a response.

Happy Thanksgiving, Bill!

This is a very interesting post. (1) – (8) are hard to deny. (9) is a topic of disagreement, though I’m inclined to accept (9). Some want to deny (9) because they don’t like the skepticism it entails.

I also agree that disagreement between morally and intellectually competent epistemic peers “inserts a skeptical blade between the truth and our knowledge of it.”

Can you elaborate on what you take to be some features of objective certainty? For example, does OC entail infallibility? In other words, if S is objectively certain that p, does it follow that given S’s reason for believing that p, S cannot be wrong that p?

How about indubitability? If S is objectively certain that p, is p indubitable for S? If so, it seems to me that since disagreement between competent peers is a good reason for doubt, such disagreement undermines objective certainty, as you noted. In other words, if competent peers disagree whether or not p is true, such disagreement is a good reason to have some degree of doubt concerning the truth p.

Hi Bill,

A wonderfully rich post, lots of areas for discussion.

I’d say (9) is a corollary to (4).
Is (7) equivalent to a computational quality of truth qua truth value?

And perhaps I might raise a question that occurs around your justification proposition. Does Truth need to be communicable? Or perhaps said another way, do all true things need to be understandable, is that a constraint on truth or is that something particular to our ability to perceive and hold truth, and thus a limitation intrinsic to us and our being?

And the same to you and yours, Elliot. We have much to be grateful for this year. It is heartening to know that the nation is finally regaining its sanity.

>> . . . does OC entail infallibility? In other words, if S is objectively certain that p, does it follow that given S’s reason for believing that p, S cannot be wrong that p?<<

I am inclined to agree with Butchvarov on this and say that knowledge entails objective certainty, and that OC is impossibility of mistake. Now if it impossible that S be mistaken about the truth-value of p, then S knows infallibly that p. OC entails infallibility. See here: https://maverickphilosopher.typepad.com/maverick_philosopher/2019/12/butchvarov-knowledge-as-requiring-objective-certainty.html

Elliot @ 5:52:

>>How about indubitability? If S is objectively certain that p, is p indubitable for S? If so, it seems to me that since disagreement between competent peers is a good reason for doubt, such disagreement undermines objective certainty, as you noted. <<

Or at least it undermines objective certainty WRT to those propositions we would most like to be objectively certain about, e.g. *God exists,* *The will is free,* *The soul is immortal,* and so on.

These are propositions not about states of mind and not about purely formal states of affairs.

That I feel good right now is both subjectively certain and objectively certain. And the same is also true -- though it is less obvious -- in the case of such propositions as *a = b iff b = a.*

Mr. West,

Thank you for your comments. You write, >>Two important theses that I take to be evident in this way are, "being is not non-being" and "something exists". Slightly less important but still interesting are statements like "I currently have the sensations of white and blue".<<

See my 5:08 response to Elliot. Your first example is a formal-logical truth. It is a truth true in virtue of its logical form alone. Its truth rests on LNC which only the dialetheists have had the chutzpah to question. But I don't have to join their ranks. It is enough for me to say that the truths of formal logic are no threat to my thesis that the classical problems of philosophy are all of them genuine (as opposed to pseudo), some of them important, but none of them soluble by us.

The truths of logic are not substantively philosophical in the way that *Evil is privatio boni* or *the soul is immortal* are. And the same goes for sensory reports such as *I feel nauseous* and your example of sensing white.

And the same goes for *Something exists.* I know with objective certainty that these thoughts about existence exist, whence it immediately follows that something exists. What does not follow is that something exists that is independent of my thoughts or thinkings.

EG,

Thanks for your kind words, and Happy Thanksgiving.

>>I’d say (9) is a corollary to (4).<<

4) Knowledge entails truth.

9) Knowledge entails objective certainty.

(4) says that whatever one KNOWS (sensu stricto) is true. There cannot be false knowledge. 'Knows' used strictly is a 'verb of success,' unlike 'believe' which is not.

(9) says that whatever one KNOWS (sensu stricto) one knows in such a way that the knower cannot doubt that he knows it.

Now if I have properly explicated (9), then (9) s not a corollary of (4): it is conceivable that (4) is true and (9) false.

Elliot, I need your help on this.

For my two cents on this topic, please see my 1978 paper for Albert Hofstadter (1910-1989), when he taught at the New School for Social Research: "Philosophic Diversity and Skeptical Possibility: A Confrontation with Hegel," the text of which I appended to a recent post:
https://anthonygflood.com/2024/10/how-i-philosophized-when-i-put-philosophy-before-christ/

Bill,

your #8 is much vexxed: I thought Gettier's '63 paper had largely discredited the whole "knowledge is justified true belief" trope; at the very least made it (much less) than self-evident, and much more in need of substantive...uhh...justification.

i can't make sense of your #9: on the one hand, you seem to use "objective certainty" and "sure possession" as interchangeable, but then, on the other, to contrast "objective certainty" with "subjective certitude".

what do you mean when you describe someone to be "objectively certain" about the truth (or falsity) of some proposition p? as opposed to having "subjective certitude" with regard to the truth-status of that proposition?

i find that i can't disentangle the idea of an "objective certainty" with regard to p, rooted in the consensus of the "experts", from my "subjective certitude" that those experts are mistaken: "certitude" describes my subjective sense of confidence in the truth or falsity of p.


your response to EG on this point:

(9) says that whatever one KNOWS (sensu stricto) one knows in such a way that the knower cannot doubt that he knows it.

strikes me as a bit tendentious.

what is "doubt"? while i believe myself to know (sunsu stricto) certain propositions, at the same time i countenance the possibility that i am mistaken about the truth of those propositions.

is that doubt?


ultimately, this seems like a conflict between epistemological internalism and externalism.

Hi Bill,

Let me ask a possibly strange question:

Is our Being a constraint on what we can accept or understand as real/true?

Tony,

Happy Thanksgiving! Trump's great triumph over the forces of darkness and destruction is the main thing to celebrate tomorrow. Change has restored hope. Our petty lives mean little in comparison to the fate of the greatest nation that has ever existed.

I am also thankful for your 1978 essay. Here are some comments.

>>I submit that diversity of philosophic position, and ultimately of all “rational opinion,” is unsettling to the belief in universal reason, the presupposition of all philosophical undertaking, and consequently in objective truth. <<

I agree that the philosophical enterprise presupposes reason, and I agree that said enterprise presuppose objective truth. But while the diversity of philosophical positions threatens to undermine reason as the way to the ultimate truth, it is no threat to objective truth.

Thanks for the quotations from Charles Bigger and from John Wisdom. You may recall that you sold me Bigger's book. (I received it 14 Sept 2022)

>>That this negative circumstance obtains, I believe there is general agreement. Philosophers tend to manifest their recognition of this otherwise unnerving state of affairs by good-naturedly conveying the sentiment that, “Of course, I could be wrong.” (Even Professor Bigger, midway in his attempt to undo the “positive scandal” in Platonic studies, admits that access to Plato’s “real view” of time, pertinent to an accurate account of participation, is probably impossible and hence all we may hope for is “interesting error” in the remainder of his book.[5]) Such an attitude betrays an epistemological relativism that, I hold, no philosopher can consciously accept and continues his work.<<

I think you are confusing epistemic humility with epistemological relativism. "I could be wrong" expresses epistemic humility, not epist. relativism.

>>But—and this is my central claim—if the state of affairs described in the preceding paragraph obtains, then the possibility of a successful pursuit of truth, assumed by all philosophers, can only be formally assented to, but never concretely grasped.<<

You could have put this more clearly. I think what you are saying is that the scandalous fact of philosophical disagreement makes it impossible to arrive at objective truth by the use of reason in such a way that we know that we have arrived at objective truth.

If that is what you are saying, then I agree. More later.

Tony,

>>Existence Postulate<< You say that for any position in philosophy, no matter how carefully articulated and rigorously argued for, there exist competent practitioners who reasonably reject it.

I agree if the point is put exactly as I have put it.

>>Assumption<< You tell us that every philosopher seeks the truth, and "attempts to say what is the case." I of course agree, but to add specificity I would add: he seeks the ultimate truth about the ultimate matters.

>>To refute a philosopher is to say that what he or she says is false, that his or her attempt to get at the truth has failed. No philosopher can be indifferent to such a judgment.<< Now I don't much cotton to that 'his or her' PeeCee bullshit, but you were a young guy when you wrote this (1978), so I'll it pass. [GRIN] But a qualification is needed. If Beavis or Butthead, or both, take issue with what I say on a philosophical topic, I may justifiably remain indifferent to their verbal outbursts.

It is also worth noting -- not that you deny it -- that 'refutes' is NOT a verb of success.

More to come.

Tony,

>>Claim<< Your claim is on the right track, though your formulation is poor. I would put it as follows. There is exactly one total Way Things Are. The ultimate truth is the truth about the total Way things Are. Philosophers seek to lay bare, to express, at least some of this truth by the use of discursive reason aided by the senses.

You then write: >> if philosophers never reach agreement as to what Truth is . . . then philosophy has been, is, and foreseeably will be a failure on its terms.<< Minor point: you should distinguish between Truth -- that in virtue of which a truth, a true proposition, is true and truths, the totality of which would be the truth, not Truth. You are ignoring an important distinction, so maybe my point is not so minor after all. Be that as it may.

But you are on the right track. There is lot more to say about this, however, and I say it in my metaphilosophy book (in progress).

Tony,

>>Dogmatism<<

>>persistence in philosophy in the face of such a situation [perennial disagreement among competent practitioners] indicates a dogmatism incompatible with the philosopher’s claim to objective, reasonable thought.

The dogmatism either takes the form of conceit in the superiority of one’s philosophical efforts such that those who disagree must of necessity be blind, incompetent, or under the spell of some discredited tradition (in other words, diversity implies error—someone else’s); or it takes the more common form of annoyance with any critical effort that tends to call into question philosophizing itself.<<

I like what you are saying here. The first form of dogmatism I call "privileging one's own position" and I'm against it.

The second form of dogmatism is beneath refutation. Who does it?

But here is a challenge for you (I am not speaking in my own voice). It might be urged that while it is true that no philosophical dispute has ever been resolved to the satisfaction of all competent practitioners, it is a BAD INDUCTION to conclude that no phil. dispute will ever be resolved to the satisfaction, etc. After all, we've been at this game for less than three millennia . . . and who knows what the future will bring once Trump MsAGA, Elon Musk colonizes Mars, and we make contact with advanced extraterrestrial civilizations, etc.

What would you say to the BAD INDUCTION objection?

But there is another point I should make. You seem to think that philosophy proceeds reasonably only if it achieves agreed-upon results. I deny that as I have argued many times. Why do you accept it?

Tony,

Do you want to sell me the book you cite in which Q. Lauer's paper is to be found? The Flood Wing of the Bibilioteca Vallicelliana is eager to expand.

Lauer is spot on when he writes: >>the “perennial problem . . . has been the universalizing of a reason whose activity takes place in individuals, but whose validity transcends the limits of individual reason.”[9]<<

You wrote your essay when you were 24 or 25 yrs old. Pretty good stuff for a young whippersnapper! I agree with much, and I sympathize with the frustration you felt with the technical minutiae and Wittgenstein exegesis you were subjected to at NYU.

You and I are alike in that we both take the problem of phil. disagreement very seriously and we both have devoted our lives to the quest for the ultimate truth about the ultimate matters, whatever it is, and however it is to be attained, whether by specifically philosophical methods and routes, or by extra-philosophical methods and routes.

And I believe we are alike in that we both view philosophy existentially, which implies that we see the quest for the ultimate truth about the ultimate matters as pertaining to our very identity. And so for me, and I think also for you, the questions What is philosophy? and How is it possible? are intimately related to, and practically identical with the questions Who am I? What am I about in this life? How can I live an authentic life, a life in truth. And so I, and maybe you too, despise the academic functionaries, the blase time-servers, the intellectual gamesmen, the unserious scum for whom philosophy is just a way to fill one's belly with no heavy lifting and summers off.

So I think you and I have much common ground. The difference is that you have opted for a presuppositionalism that to me makes no sense and is a privileging of a arbitrarily adopted position. I have shown to my satisfaction that TAG is a non-starter. You of course disagree. This is yet another phil. disagreement. You may think you are beyond philosophy and that philosophy is, as you term it 'misosophy,' but you are still stuck at the phil. level.

BV at 4:37 AM on Nov. 26:

>> I am inclined to agree with Butchvarov on this and say that knowledge entails objective certainty, and that OC is impossibility of mistake. <<


And I’m inclined to agree with you and Butchvarov that knowledge entails OC. Why? For one thing, the thesis of epistemic infallibilism seems immune to the epistemic luck present in Gettier cases. Or as Socrates might put it, OC tethers true belief so that it doesn’t run away (Meno) at the sight of epistemic luck. For another thing, epistemic infallibilism explains why knowledge is more valuable than mere true belief.

A common objection to epistemic infallibilism is that it eliminates much of what we ordinarily take ourselves to know. For example, I justifiably believe that I am now looking at a lamp with a blue lampshade. But since it’s possible that I’m wrong, I don’t know that I’m looking at the lamp. Some want to say that I know I’m looking at the lamp. The infallibilist can say that I know I’m having an experience as of looking at the lamp, or that I know I’m being appeared-to-bluely, but I don’t know (precisely speaking) that I’m looking at a lamp.

One point to discuss further: What is meant by “impossibility of mistake?” What sort of possibility is at work here?

Re: Fuchs:

Consensus is logically irrelevant to truth, as you noted. Truth does not entail consensus, nor consensus truth. And consensus does not entail objective certainty, but OC entails both truth and consensus among epistemic peers (at least regarding publicly available matters). If Socrates has objective certainty that p, and Plato, Aristotle, Descartes, and Kant are Socrates’ epistemic peers, then P, A, D, and K have objective certainty that p.

Bill,

You wrote: >>That I feel good right now is both subjectively certain and objectively certain. And the same is also true -- though it is less obvious -- in the case of such propositions as *a = b iff b = a.*<<

That looks right to me. Regarding *a = b iff b = a*, what seems correct to me is to say that this proposition is objectively certain and for any person, that person has a right to be subjectively certain about the proposition, is subjectively certain when thinking clearly, and ought to be subjectively certain when thinking clearly.

Suppose Smith is prone to unreasonable nervousness and lack of self-confidence. Smith is a logic student. It’s test day. One question on the test is: “Is *a = b iff b = a* a true proposition?” Smith has objective certainty about the correct answer, and has the right to subjective certainty, but because of his self-doubt, he’s not subjectively certain. He’s too worried about making a mistake. (I suppose that this case could be explained in such a way that Smith doesn't doubt the proposition but instead doubts himself.)

So, what we might say is that *a = b iff b = a* is subjectively certain for anyone who understands it and is in his right mind when considering it.

>> 4) Knowledge entails truth.
9) Knowledge entails objective certainty.

Now if I have properly explicated (9), then (9) is not a corollary of (4): it is conceivable that (4) is true and (9) false. <<

Bill, that seems right to me. (4) is a philosophical axiom. Most (perhaps virtually all) philosophers accept it, though a few recently have questioned it. But many deny (9). One of their challenges is to handle Gettier cases while also holding that knowledge is consistent with fallible justification. It seems to me that fallible justification allows for epistemic luck, which is inconsistent with knowledge.

Excellent comments, Elliot.

I hope to respond tomorrow, perhaps in a separate post after I think about how the Gettier cases interact with the infallibility thesis.

Who has questioned (4) and why?

Hi, Bill.

I'd be interested to read your thoughts about this topic.

As Gordon notes, “Knowledge is almost universally taken to be to be factive.” (Understanding in Epistemology, IEP; https://iep.utm.edu/understa/#H2 ) In other words, to know that p entails that p is true.

However, a few have argued that knowledge is not factive. In The Myth of Factive Verbs, Hazlett argues that the verb ‘to know’ is not factive and raises doubts that knowledge itself is factive. (Phil. and Phen. Research, Vol. 80, No. 3, 2010. https://aristotle.rutgers.edu/joomlatools-files/docman-files/Hazlett.pdf )

Bricker argues that the view that knowledge is factive commits one to an implausible version of epistemic externalism. (Knowledge as a (Non-factive) Mental State, Erkenntnis, June 2023)

Shaffer argues that knowledge does not entail truth, and that one can know a proposition that is approximately true though precisely false. (Can Knowledge Really be Non-factive? Logos and Episteme: An International Journal of Epistemology 12 (2):215-226 (2021), https://philarchive.org/archive/SHACKR )

Buckwalter and Turri argue that “if knowledge requires truth, then the fact that many of our beliefs are false threatens skepticism.” To avoid skepticism, they propose abandoning the truth requirement for knowledge and allowing propositions that are approximately true (though false) to be knowable. (Knowledge and truth: A skeptical challenge, Pac. Phil. Qtrly. 101 (1) 2019, https://files.turri.org/research/factivity_skepticism.pdf )

Popovic argues that truth is not a necessary condition for knowledge. (The Tesseract, the Cube and Truthless Knowledge; Why Truth is Not a Necessary Condition for Knowledge )

Goh and Choo argue against cases that knowledge is not factive, defending the thesis that knowledge entails truth. (Addressing two recent challenges to the factive account of knowledge; Synthese (2022) 200:435 ; https://philarchive.org/archive/GOHATR )

In "Proof that Knowledge Entails Truth," Kyle uses modal logic to argue that the denial that knowledge entails truth leads to a contradiction, thus showing (by reductio) that knowledge entails truth. https://philarchive.org/archive/KYLPTK

Bill,

It is interesting to note that the infallibility thesis (IT) entails that knowledge is factive. On the IT, knowledge entails objective certainty, which entails infallible belief. But whatever is believed infallibly is true. Hence, according to IT, knowledge entails truth.

Hi Bill and Elliot,

In RE: the comment by Elliot on Saturday 11/30/24 @ 1:45PM

What is worrying about "factivity" getting us? Are we moving closer, or have we simply moved the conversation to a different set of concepts?

Call it an extra-philosophical guess, but I suspect that a deep part of unpacking some of these puzzles will be to properly understand our consciousness, say what it is and how it relates to our inescapable subjective experience of an "external reality." From my position, no amount of logical argument is going to guarantee the truth (as opposed to a stipulated/putative truth-value) of anything, since I don't think you actually have to argue for true things at all.

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